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April 10, 2020
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Philippians1v21
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April 10, 2020 at 8:33 pm
Why is it fair that we got tainted … were sinners by birth … just because of Adam and Eve ? We never had a chance to walk together with God. And God KNEW before He created anything, what would happen !
April 11, 2020 at 11:56 am
Margret,
Thanks for your question. The Doctrine of Original Sin can certainly be a tough pill to swallow for some. It does offend some people’s internal, innate sense of “fairness”. However, I would caution you that your internal sense of what is fair is flawed, limited by your human experience and that it is also tainted by the fall.
The corruption from the fall affects every part of our being, including our ability to reason (particularly our moral reasoning). For this reason alone, we are not good judges of what is fair and just. We tend to feel wronged and to believe we are an offended party when the reality is quite the opposite. Remember, this was the first lie told by the Serpent, that God was wronging mankind and denying something good from them. Ever since mankind first believed this, we have been prone to continue believing it. We need to always spot this lie creeping into our minds and remember its origin.
Even without the poisoning from the Fall, our sense of fairness is limited by our finite humanity. We judge fairness based on our own limited personal experiences. We form rules and guidelines from our interaction with others as to what constitutes right and just conduct (i.e. give and take). Those experiences are unhelpful to us when we start to apply them to an infinite God who is our creator. What is “fair” and “just” for to govern two people’s interaction cannot be said to apply to a creator God, who is Himself the ACTUAL standard for justice. We have no experiences to draw from to guide us in evaluating what is “fair” for the creator to do. He is in a completely different category than us.
To say it another way, humans are in no condition to judge what is and is not “fair” for God to do. We only have any since of fairness at all because we derive it from the ultimate source of justice: God. This is the same as how humans can’t sit and judge God on whether He is good or not. Our entire notion of good vs. evil is dependent on having some fixed, objective standard from which to make moral judgements. If there is no fixed, objective standard, then one person’s idea of what is good is just as valid as another’s. Hitler’s definition would be just as legitimate as Mother Theresa’s. We know this is not true. We instinctively know there IS an objective standard. God is the only thing that can provide it. Thus, God is the objective standard for good. He is justice. We can only know what is just as we understand His nature. Therefore, we certainly can’t sit back judges on His actions as unjust. This would mean there was some standard outside of God by which we can judge God. But, then whatever standard this was would be God.
Notice that I switched to using the word “justice” instead of “fairness”. That was intentional. I think they mean somewhat different things. God is just. That is part of His nature. However, that doesn’t mean he is necessarily “fair”. Fairness implies equal treatment. It implies that two people are treated the same way. God never promises to treat humans equally. God loves Jacob and hates Esau (Rom 9:13). God chooses Abraham to bless and not all the other peoples. Jesus chooses the 12 disciples, which means He didn’t choose many others. There are countless examples of this in the Bible. God’s justice does not force Him to treat everyone the same. In the Bible God says repeatedly, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion” (Ex 33:19, also Rom 9:15). It is God’s prerogative to bless and curse. He is the creator. He created mankind for His purposes to accomplish His plans. The created cannot accuse the creator of injustice when the creator uses the creation for its created purpose. A similar and related question to the one you raise was asked by Paul in Romans 9. Let’s listen to Paul’s answer. . .
Yes, at the end of the day, we are all God’s creation. We exist by His grace to fulfill the purpose for which He created us. That is the truest answer possible to your question. But while this certainly establishes God’s right to condemn all mankind by the sins of Adam, it may not fully satisfy your feeling that it is not loving for God to do so. Even if God can do so without violating justice, perhaps His goodness and love should cause Him not to. Let’s think about some reasons God would do this.
First, I think it’s important to understand that Adam represented more than just himself. He was our Federal Head, our representative before God. Adam stands before God as our representative and so acts on our behalf. His misdeed was our misdeed because he acted as our proxy before God. Imagine that the United States sent an ambassador to Libya to represent the American government. Now imagine this ambassador went up and punched the president of Libya in the face. How would the people of Libya feel toward Americans? They probably wouldn’t be happy. Actually, this would constitute a declaration of war on Libya on behalf of America. Adam was humanity’s ambassador before God, and, in a sense, he punched God in the face by rebelling against Him. Adam declared war on God on behalf of all humanity.
Secondly, The Bible sees all humans as linked to Adam physically. Because all humans ultimately come from one set of parents, we are all linked to Adam genetically. In a sense, we were all “in Adam” when he sinned. All sin has consequences. These consequences altered the human DNA. Adam and Eve became physically altered. Birth pains were increased. Work became harder. Their bodies began to decay and die. These physical effects impacted all who would follow because we were in Adam and Eve (in a genetic sense) when they fell. This is why Christ had to be born supernaturally, and not as a descendant from Adam.
Thirdly, every human on earth rebelled against God. Yes, there were only two at the time. But that was still all humanity. Thus, the curse given applied to all humanity.
Fourthly, part of the ugliness of sin is that it almost always affects others. When a father rebels against God it usually does mean his children will forsake God. When a king sins, the whole nation is affected. Look at the stories in the Bible and you will see this. Sin’s impact is not limited to the one who sins (or even the one sinned against). It often impacts many who are unrelated. This is part of the evil and horribleness of sin.
Fifthly, the condemnation of one person for the wrong-doing and crimes of another is an established part of Western systems of justice. It’s called “vicarious liability”. An employer, for example, can be held vicariously liable for the misdeeds of his employee committed in his role as employee and then be punished for them. In this case the employer is not being held liable for other wrongs, such as negligence or failure to supervise the employee. No, he may be entirely innocent and blameless, but the liability or guilt of the employee is imputed to him. So, your objection is not specific to only theology; the whole Western system of justice stands against it. Even secular notions of justice understand that in some cases the consequences of wrong can pass to those who did not personally commit them simply as a result of association and representation.
Sixthly, it is presumptuous for you to assume you would not have done the same thing as Adam and Eve did in their situation. It is easy to set back now and judge them as idiots. Surely, we would not have done that. We have more sense than that. Don’t be so quick to conclude that. I could point out that the fact that you are even struggling with this question points out a susceptibility and vulnerability to believing that lie of the Serpent. Is God really just and fair? Is He really good? Is he denying some goodness from us? I am no better off than you or Adam and Eve here. I suspect I would have done the same as they. Thus, I don’t believe Adam and Eve were really “bad” representatives of mankind. I think all of us would likely have done the same. God, who is all-knowing, can see that we would all do the same thing. Through this He can certainly satisfy the accusation that His goodness is somehow violated.
Seventh, we are also condemned due to our own sin. Though we are born under the sin of Adam, the Bible is clear that we are also condemned because of our own sin. The reason someone goes to hell is not only due to Adam’s misdeed—we also decided to rebel against God’s commands as individuals. Perhaps we would have some slight ground to argue God wasn’t being loving if we didn’t also commit willful, rebellious sin against Him ourselves.
Lastly (and probably most importantly), if it is unfair for God to count you as guilty in Adam, then it is also unfair for Him to count you as righteous in Christ. Yes, the “fairness” razor cuts both ways. If it is wrong for Adam’s unrighteousness to be imputed to us, then it is also wrong for Jesus’ righteousness to be imputed to us. We can’t have our cake and eat it too, here. Trust me, you want to economics of grace and mercy here. Fair means we all get hell. Grace means that God saves some as a gift.
God is the ultimate standard of justice, which is the greatest news in the world because He never makes mistakes or judges wrongly. I urge you to cast yourself into the hands of a kind Creator who loves us and has given us undeserved grace. Though we have been born in Adam, through faith we are born again into Jesus!
April 11, 2020 at 3:45 pm
Thank you very much for all your explanations !!! They were very helpful. You might have taken me a little bit wrong, as I am a born again Christian since I was very young. But these kinds of thoughts often get into my mind … and I just want to hear a good explantion, which you have given. (I have a simple mind).
A couple other things that seem to get under my skin are: I have no problem with people not going to heaven … and being punished. BUT burning for ETERNITY !!!!! The thought makes me quite literally sick to my stomach !!! (I have 4 children) The other thing is ETERNITY itself. At this time in human history (I love the whole subject of prophesy) I can see the signs of the endtimes. It kind of makes me excited ! Since Israel became a nation, it’s like the countdown ! And it makes me smile … thinking, soon we will be caught up to be with Jesus.
But then I think about eternity …. which freaks me out !
Forever & FOREVER ?? No, I don’t want to live forever and ever. That too is overwhelming for me. If one ponders what eternity means … the mind can’t grasp it.
Anyways, thank you so much for your response !
June 1, 2020 at 12:20 pm
Margret,
Thanks for responding. I’m glad to hear that you are a believer. It is certainly normal and healthy to wrestle through these type of questions. A ton could be said regarding your other two questions, but let me make a few brief comments. Hopefully they will help some.
Why does God punish people eternally? Wouldn’t it be enough to just wipe them out of existence or punish them for a little while? It’s so easy for us to think we are pretty significant and have only slightly offended God. We naturally elevate our importance. We naturally minimize the severity and offense of our sin. The problem with the notion that a good God shouldn’t torment sinners eternally is that it fails to understand and account for the severity of sin. Most of us think it’s not that bad. Sinners don’t really deserve THAT, right? But it IS that bad. Sin is abhorrent to God. I encourage you to read this blog article I wrote on this subject: Grace – The Enormous Gap Between What I Deserve & What God has Given Me.
It is very difficult for us to believe God could really punish people eternally because we think we are the center of the universe and that God owes us more than that. This reveals an underlying assumption that we have: that people are deserving of good and entitled to benevolent treatment from God. The problem with this assumption is that it isn’t true. The unpleasant truth is just the opposite. In fact, we are deserving of eternal punishment and death because of our rebellion against God.
When we question how God can punish eternally, we are thinking about sin backwards. It’s not only the severity of a person’s sin that determines the nature of the punishment. It is also the nature of the one who is sinned against that establishes the level of offense. We understand this principle. A crime against an animal is naturally considered more serious than a crime against plants. A crime against a human is punished more harshly than a crime against an animal. Slapping your brother in the face would earn you quite different level of punishment than if you slapped the President of the United States in the face. In the case of man’s sin against a perfect, holy, and eternal God, the sin may be minor from our perspective, but the offense is infinite because the One wronged is infinite. Sinning against an imperfect and finite person might merit temporal punishment, but sinning against a completely holy and eternal being merits eternal punishment. I highly encourage you to read this article from Stand to Reason that will provide more explanation than I have time to here: http://www.str.org/articles/is-eternal-punishment-just#.V8CKhnoSONg
Your next question was about living forever in heaven. Forever is too long for the human mind to comprehend. It seems overwhelming, even tedious and undesirable. You said, “It freaks you out”. This is normal because you have a finite, fallen human mind. All of our experience has been in a fallen, broken world with sickness, pain, death, tears, hardships, fear, difficulties, anxiety and uncertainty. We have no experience from which to form a notion of what life would be without these things. So, when we picture eternity it doesn’t sound all that great to us. Frankly, if I had to live forever this way, I wouldn’t want to either. 90+ years is more than enough. But, Paul says we cannot conceive of the eternal weight of glory that we have in store (2 Cor 4:17). Our eternal life with God will be so unlike and superior to this life that there will be little comparison. Boredom and drudgery will be foreign concepts to us then (just as sadness, grief, anxiety, anger, and fear will be).
We will still have finite minds (though likely much more capable), so I doubt we will be able to comprehend eternity fully, even then. But, we won’t care about understanding it. Every day will be another day to enjoy the full presence of God. We will have enough to focus on each day that we will not be consumed with how many more we have to go.
Imagine life with no time pressures. Imagine that you could take as many days (or years) as you wanted to learn some task you had always wanted to know how to do. Imagine being able to travel and see everything you want. Imagine no fear that you won’t be able to see a loved one again, or that when you did they may be older, sicker or changed for the worse. Imagine being able to retain everything you read and learn. We will always be learning, growing and experiencing. We will always be learning more and new things about God, too. There will be unlimited things to do, see and experience. Every day will be a day full of wonderful new experiences. Heaven will be amazing! We will take it one day at a time and never want fewer.
Hopefully that helps some. As I said, much more could be written on these. Just trying to answer as briefly as possible.
Jake